ROLANDO MORALES MESSAGE BOARD
Response to your Argument
Posted by: Mark
When: 3/11/2003 7:38:28 PM
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Hi Sarah Thanks for being the first one that has responded to my posts in at least a conversational tone. Let me respond to your points. I disagree with you that war is not productive or is a failure. If not for war...I'd be dead. Hitler would have run over the world and i'd be gassed long back for not being white. It took a long, bloody, war to beat that back. Dictators are almost always disposed of through war - it is the case because of their nature - they will not accept your handful of white daisies and your plea for peace/harmony and humane treatment of people. Saddam kills thousands of people per year, he has killed over 1.5 million in fact and is hell bent on riches. For him it is about oil and power. If he can help a few terrorists create havoc with those who stand in his way, the US, he will do it. It is also about oil for the French, Germans and Russians. A little history for you; after the Gulf War, it was banned to give Iraq military weapons or anything other than humanitarian aid, which the US has supplied the most of I might add. It was forbidden to buy oil from Iraq too because it was known Saddam would use it to rebuild his military and oil machine, and he would continue starving his people. France and Germany are in violation of these UN accords, having sold weaponry and bought oil for the last 5 or 6 years....and now they don't want that to evaporate. So under no circumstances will they ever authorize war on Iraq. Leave Israel out of this - that is not relevant and is a distraction to the argument at hand. Stay on topic. FACT: UN Res 1441 said that from 30 days after its signing in November Iraq had to fully comply with disarmament or face military action. It is now 4 months after that and we have found WMD, Chemical, Bio, and illegal missiles and automated drones that are not supposed to exist. On that alone, the US can (and will) go into Iraq and disarm him. It is not about oil or stocks for the US, in fact the decision to go is hurting the market, but Bush is driven by principle on this one. Past behavior is always an indicator for future action - Saddam will use and sell these weapons on the black market if he gets them - and he will use nuclear weapons to dominate the middle east if he's allowed to get them. That is why he must go. The final reason he must go is humanitarian. DO YOU CARE THAT 1.5 MILLION Iraqis are dead at Saddam's hand, and that thousands more are raped, burned, tortured and brutally killed every year. Did you see the video of the atrocities he has committed against the children and women of Iraq?? Do you like it that Iraqi women are beheaded and raped by the dozens every month in Iraq for merely speaking out!?!? On that alone, he should be tried on the Geneva Accords - where are you protesting these horrific acts of brutality? Why are you not calling for his resignation? Now - your arguments against war reflect a deep misunderstanding of war. We agree that war is not a nice thing, and that peaceful means are always preferable. What you don't understand is that 99% of the dicatators that have ever lived have been removed through war. Sad but true because that it who they are. You would have made the same, decrepit, liberal argument for Social Sec, Education and Health Care 20 years ago Sarah, when we were still outspending defense on those programs. We have spent in the US over 18 Trillion dollars in the last 30 years on these programs - they have brought us deficits and debt, and my argument to you is that we are worse off than before. So we have for example over $300 billion dollars spent on Soc Sec, Education etc...in fact TED KENNEDY WROTE THE EDUCATION bill passed this year - and it has more spending than ever before. What part of this needs to be increased according to you? It is also totally justified for me to go back to another president who did the same thing to Iraq for the same reasons - it is completely related and a hell of a lot more relevant to do so than going back 12 years to anything Israel did or did not do. They were attacked by Iraq I recall. Let me ask you some hard, honest questions? 1) Under what circumstances if any is war ever justified for you? Is there any? 2) Do you want Saddam and other murderers like him remaining in power to kill and brutalize more people? Is freedom only good for you and not for them? 3) Are you aware that Afghanistan is recovering nicely, people are enjoying their freedoms, business is thriving and women aren't being persecuted there anymore? Do you think that won't happen in Iraq? There are people that are truly, mind numbingly Utopian who hate violence of any kind. At least that is principled though unrealistic and in America they are entitled to express that opinion (thanks to war) - but most of you anti-war people are not anti-war, you just come out of the woodwork when the President has an "R" next to his name. Most anti war people I'm running into just hate Bush and are still pissed off that Gore lost the election, and want to do damage to Bush politically. This is the way that very first response to my post was - I would hope that you are at least against war for principle - but again, I do not think you would survive in the real world. I'd love to see you try to live in Iraq or any of these other countries. You'd be like the idiot "human shields" who "suddenly and surprisingly" found out that Saddam was going to put them in oil refineries and military plants, not the orphanges and hospitals they thought they would be "defending". Look forward to your response. In response to: I would like to respond to all the messages under this bullet. I do not believe that this arguement should be based on what another president did or did not do. That falls under the same old false precedence of well he did it so why can't I. However, I do believe that we should revisit the Gulf War and look at the facts. But before I go there I would like to comment on the fundamentals of war, for I think that the arguement against war is very simple. When thinking about war numerous great quotes pop into my head of which I will probably distort if I try to reiterate them. But I will do so anyway. I can't remember who said it but, 'they' said that war is only honorable for those who haven't tasted it. Anyhow, war should be avoided whenever possible, and there is no reason why we would have to go to war with Iraq since they haven't attacked us unless it is for economic reasons. Not only for the acquisition of oil, but we have this thing called the stock market which requires all of those individuals participating in it to bet on the future. Thus, as we all shoudl know, our financial advisers are betting monetarily on whether or not we will go to war with Iraq. This falsifies our intentions and perceptions of what is right and what is wrong because we now have conflicts of interest in the outcome. However, the occurence of war is the basest form that humanity can stoop to. Okay my first syllogism arguement. First of all, we do not use violence to solve our personal problems usually not because of our criminal justice system but because we know it won't work. Our country has the same dynamics in the international arena as an individual within their social group. Therefore, if we cannot and usually do not use violence to solve our personal problems then we should not use it on an international level. My second arguement is an economic one, since we Americans love this one. We cannot afford to spend a billion dollars a day that isn't spent on productive and constructive endeavors. We have a failing social security system, many of our children are not going to be able to go to college and college students already work really hard to do so as it is, we practically a non-existent health system, and on and on... We need to focus on improving our own country and further bringing our societies and communities together to make them stronger and healthier, as we need to do likewise for our people. We have failed in our belief of humanity when we result to war. Failed because war is destructive and counterproductive to the desired end. I will be back to comment more, but now I must run. When I come back I will comment on the past Gulf War. Cheers! In response to: Hey Rolando Even CNN polls show greater than 60% support for the war we're going to have with Iraq. Let's use a little history here. Prez Clinton declared war on Iraq under the same pretense in 98 with full support from a Democrat controlled Senate - including Daschle. ON what grounds? Same pretenses... Fast foward to 2003. What's different? Saddam is mor powerful, more well armed, has chemical and biological weapons, has murdered thousands upon THOUSANDS of his own people to make sure they work...and is aiding Al Quaeda. He has been actively acquiring the components for Nuclear Weapons - he already showed he'll fire them at Israel unprovoked from the 1992 Gulf War.... AND the US has been attacked by the very elements he wants to give these weapons to. I don't care if the polls turn unfavorable, this madman has to be taken down - and thank God we have a president who has the guts to do the right thing. Clinton bombed Serbia to deflect attention away from Monicagate...and he went in under only one pretense...human rights. Remember Slobodan Milosevic? We could and should remove Saddam for that sole reason - human rights violations...BUT we have so much more than that. Democrats are playing a political game with America's safety - they'll support a Democrat president on pure assumptions before they support the current Republican one with ironclad evidence of UN breaches, genocide, active bomb making in violation of said agreements etc. etc.. After Powell's masterful and convincing testimony - most people are on the US side - except those with an "inner Frenchman". The only people left on the anti-war side are those who are blind, dumb, and revealed for what they truly are: Anti-Bush or Anti-Republican. That's the bottom line folks.
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